That was really great and even cleared one or two little details up for me.

1. I didn't know how Xehanort could have known that Sora and Riku would start their exam "today", thinking about how they could have known they would do it that day in the present. One would think it would have been obvious from when I found out they went back in time to the day the islands fell to darkness but no, not for me.

2. The whole time travelling law about only being able to go in one direction and that the future don't exist.
Didn't really get that before but I still don't understand the whole "my path has been edged in my heart" part because that shouldn't change anything at all until the present day when Master Xehanort return because that journey didn't happen until then seeing how the future don't exist and the story of 3D didn't exist in KH I for example.

It also seam as if the Timeless River might be an entrance to the dream of that world which I think I theorized about once before but it's nice to realize it again.

This was... AMAZING ♥ ♥ ♥ ; A ;
It's heart-warming to see such dedicated people!!

Get job to both staffs, it really will help others not be confused with Time Travel in KH and what Xehanort is upto. Can't wait for the connections to Sora's heart.

*Plays DDD*



*watches video*

This was wonderful!

I know a lot of people don't like the time travel aspect that was introduced in DDD, but I ADORE it. I love how it has clearly defined rules and is internally consistent; everything makes sense and fits into the larger story, even if it was a last minute asspull. Figuring it out is so interesting, and it actually makes some things in the series less confusing to me, rather than more.

/unpopular opinion.

A good way to explain it would be like how Namine edited Sora's memories and while he forgot the events of CoM, the memories were still there lingering in the darkness of his heart waiting to resurface (which they eventually did at the end of KH2FM when Sora notes that he never told Namine thanks). Young Xehanort is similar in that he has traveled to the past, has experienced things that he will not remember, but the echoes of those lost memories still exist in his heart and because of them he will continue on his fated destiny because that future is going to happen.

Also, the time conundrum is irritating. Master Xehanort talks about how the future is not yet written because he could not see it (in essence, they had reached the present of the current timeline) and yet Young Xehanort has traveled into his future and you also brought up the point that the future wouldn't have existed in KH1 until we reached KH3D. This brings in some timeless philosophical questions of: "Is everything predetermined/destined or is the future malleable?" and "Do these characters have true free will/control over their fates?"

I think another element that complicates things is the Book of Prophecy and chi itself. The fate of the World is written in that book, the cards that the players use in chi are created from the future written in the tome, so wouldn't that mean that the future has been known for a very long time now? Isn't the future known and already written/determined?

We can't answer these questions because the answers lie with KH3. (Also chi is a ball of confusion and who knows what time period it exists in considering it might actually be taking place in the RoS)

My suggestion is to view things with the first explanation. The memories are deep down in Xehanort's heart and while he doesn't remember, they subconsciously guide him.



That is me. (Ignore that I helped edit the script.)

still not quite clear on a few points.

so according to "reasons" you can't travel forward in time past the point of origin (present), can only travel forward with the flow of time, and you can only travel backwards to a point where another you is physically present. xehanort's heartless traveled back in time from a point in KHI before possessing Riku to transfer his time travel powers his younger self.

How does this affect YX's time travel abilities? Would his "point of origin" remain the same as his heartless since he's just using his powers, being some point during KHI? What exactly is the method that allows him to bring others with him thru time? At what point would YX have had a chance to collect Ansem Seeker of Darkness if his point of origin is set to a point where Xehanort is still a heartless?

How exactly does the Realm of Sleep affect the passage of time? We know that sora and riku were sent back to the point in time that Destiny Islands fell to darkness in order to enter the realm of sleep but then by the time we get to The World that Never Was Master Xehanort has "reassembled" so to speak, which would have to take place after both his heartless and nobody had been destroyed so where exactly does that take place on the timeline?

Poor Sora.. he never gets picked first. Terra or the Keyblade didn't pick Sora first and then Xehanort picked Sora third as a vessel. So let me see.. the present is set in stone and I presume the past is too. Does that mean you can't travel into the future? Also if YX changes his attitude or goes against MX, this won't affect MX's personality even if he is the future version of YX right?

Hey yeah, I'm having one of my "waitaminute" moments. So YX's present was mirrored with SoD's present when he got his time powers and now continually matches the timeline. YX can't go into the future of SoD or MX only as far as present in the normal time flow. Does this mean that YX is restricted to the Xehanort timeline? Like If all present Xehanorts are dead, YX can't travel past that point. Or does it follow normal time flow continually. Like YX can travel past all present Xehanort's deaths and follow normal time flow.


To answer my last post earlier. I guess nothing that past Xehanorts do will affect Master Xehanort. Considering that YX learned to wield a keyblade earlier in life and gain time-traveling abilities did not actually make MX an even more skilled keyblade master or have his own time-traveling abilities. Unless it changes..

The video was really great and I enjoyed it, but it seemed to bring up more questions than answers for me lol.

Yay, we did a thing!

This is so cute...


Nope, you can't travel into the future, as we know it. To YX, he is in his future, but the future beyond DDD is untouchable. They can only travel to the present (which is as of now, DDD). The past is also set in stone, yeah. Nomura made sure the other games couldn't be retconned entirely with this element. Not sure how it would change MX is YX did indeed do that, but probably not. YX at this point hasn't had the experiences to make him MX.

edit: Young Xehanort, Ansem Seeker of Darkness, Xemnas, Terranort, Rikunort, Master Xehanort. These are all essentially the same person. Xehanort. So Young Xehanort can travel throughout time as long as one of these individuals, or any Xehanort incarnation we have yet to meet, is present at the destination. If all of these different incarnations are dead, then there is nothing to travel to. A form of yourself must be present at the destination. You can only travel within your own timeline.

Nice collaboration. Still lost about the time traveling thing. I understand how it works just that how it happened.

Okay that's cool then. I think you explained the going to the future part very well, thanks! Kind of makes me wonder about the past now. If the past is set in stone, how could YX (from the past) get time-traveling powers and collect different versions of Xehanort without messing with the set in stone idea? I have a slight theory. Maybe the YX we see is not the real one and instead is a replica. Why does MX seem unaffected from YX's actions? Because he's just a replica and the real YX is still in the past following the life that's set in stone. How does YX take versions of MX's past selves with him to the present? He makes replicas of them since he can't alter the past. Why was the Organization (mostly Vexen) obsessed with replica making (Riku Replica, Vexen Replicas, Xion)? Perhaps to complete new Org 13 with willing subjects that has Xehanort's memories? It could be possible.

Good video. Great work from both parties.


Damn this series is pretentious. I love it though.

I SAID THE SAME THING. It's hard to take all of it seriously when this is also the same game series where we got to train a bunch of cutesy dream creatures.

I love it, though. Thanks for watching the video!

No problem!

Kind of makes me wonder about the past now. If the past is set in stone, how could YX (from the past) get time-traveling powers and collect different versions of Xehanort without messing with the set in stone idea?

So, only a person without a body can initially time travel. Cloaked Ansem, the Heartless Ansem before he took Riku's body, traveled back in time after shedding his body, to YX on a one way ticket. He then passed his time travel powers to YX.

I have a slight theory. Maybe the YX we see is not the real one and instead is a replica. Why does MX seem unaffected from YX's actions? Because he's just a replica and the real YX is still in the past following the life that's set in stone.

Anything is possible. I would prefer your theory to the actual time travel plot that we've been presented with. xD But, MX is unaffected because MX is part of the present timeline. He's the restored Somebody now that his Nobody and Heartless have been destroyed.

How does YX take versions of MX's past selves with him to the present? He makes replicas of them since he can't alter the past.

Here's part of the trickiness that allows them to get away with the time travel. When they're done with their time travel shenanigans in the future, they all go back to the exact point in time where YX plucked them from, totally unaware of what they were a part of. So they're really never gone from the timeline and they have no memory of what they've done to alter their actions.

Why was the Organization (mostly Vexen) obsessed with replica making (Riku Replica, Vexen Replicas, Xion)? Perhaps to complete new Org 13 with willing subjects that has Xehanort's memories? It could be possible.

I wish they had done more with the replica program. You make me think of all the possibilities that plot had.

Uh oh, someone said "Somebody" in the video. How long until the mob with the torches and pitchforks arrives to tell us that this isn't an official term coined by Nomura or his close relatives?:wink:

The video was very complicated, because it talked about so many different things so fast. For example in the beginning it tells us that Sora and Riku don't travel through time while visiting the Sleeping Worlds (meaning they don't travel in the past of the worlds) while they actually do travel through time (said much later in the video) because their journey begins on Destiny Islands in the past and ends in The World that Never Was in the present.

I understood most of it although I can't say it's very logical. Obviously Nomura likes concepts more than coherent storytelling, at least to me it seems that he has an idea (memories, replicas, datascape, bugs, dreams, time travel) and buillds a game around it. There is nothing wrong with this I guess, at least it still makes more sense than the backstory of The Legend of Zelda.

I'm a little more confused now. And some.of this sounds.more.like theorizing than anything else.

Sweet! Thanks! I'll watch it now. I'll tell you what I thought about it later.

The only part that was new for me is the "present=DDD" thing being true for everyone and everything, which explains why YX could travel beyond his own "present" (which is actually already the past, even for him ... does that make any sense?).

But here is my question: If XH could do the same as YX with his time travelling powers, then why did he bother giving them away? Is it because YX has more time on his hands to plan and stuff? Not that it matters since time "stops" for the time traveleler ... Or is it so YX could grab some vessels from BBS and before? (as you can only go in one direction, if XH decided to go to the "present" himself, those time periods would be out of his reach). That actually made sense! =3

@ShardofTruth... I'm confused. I thought Somebodies was an official term. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong, but I could've sworn I'd heard it a few times in the series, and from Nomura himself in interviews.

If nothing else, I do remember that Axel told Naminé that "We Nobodies can never hope to be Somebodies". But then again, that just might have been an Axel-ism. XD I need to look into this again now...

And also, I thought this video contradicted itself at first, too. But now that I think about it, I think it was trying to say that Sora and Riku weren't time traveling to see the past version of the worlds--as it was the Sleeping Worlds themselves that were showcasing that--but they had time traveled to enter the Sleeping Worlds to begin with, if that makes any sense at all?

ANYWAY, amazing job, everyone involved in this! KHInsider proves once again why it truly is the best KH site out there. I feel like I finally have a handle on this time travel stuff now, which is really saying something--seeing as how I used to avoid talking about this concept like the plague, and if I thought about it too much, my brain would always end up hurting.

But you guys have done a great job in explaining this all in an understandable way; so now I think I have as much a handle on this thing as is possible, with this crazy mess of a series that I love. So thanks a bunch! (And it's moments like this, that I remember why I love this fandom/fanbase so much, and just how fun it's been theorizing and figuring things out with everyone for longer than a decade now. I can't even think of another fandom that even comes close to this, and I cherish all this craziness greatly for that fact.)

Also... I can't wait to see the next episode: Especially since it's about one of my fav KH topics--the people connected to Sora--and something I can actually hold my own about/contribute to, so that's gonna be a real treat when it gets here. February can't get here fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. Eep! :)

I really like the video (Been waiting on this), but some things still feel weird to me.



If you can't change any events and happenings along the timeline, how did Ansem give Young Xehanort his powers...That changes the timeline in multiple ways. Ansem could only travel back after first existing, which was after Apprentice Xehanort turned himself into a heartless. Therefore, the Xehanort that he time traveled back too would obviously not have these powers yet, as Ansem should not, could not exist until Apprentice Xehanort turns himself into a heartless some time later in the future. So already the timeline appears to have been changed and manipulated. I'm not up to date on Xchi, but doesn't the Tome of Prophecy interfere with this no knowledge of the future stuff? Especially when it seems that he may be linked to the Foretellers based on the little info Xchi has provided and this sixth foreteller who didn't receive a tome (don't quote me on anything; and I don't even know how long ago Xchi takes place). However, it makes sense to me that he would go through such lengths if he is the sixth, as the sixth foretller did not receive a tome which can see the future. However, the way he talks about the Keyblade War and the Xblade, he makes it sound like it was many years before he was even born. So maybe it's impossible for him to be the Foreteller anyway if Xchi takes place before or just after the war. Theres still the matter of the tomes themselves though.

I don't want to be too quick to call plothole, especially when I'm likely wrong. It's one thing to be a ghost like entity and observe events as they take/took place, unable to do anything in the physical or spiritual realm. However, when you can bring past versions of yourself into a time where they do not belong, that in itself means you have altered events of the past, as there should only be one version of you in any moment in the past, and if 13 of them are in the present, that means 12 or 13 additional versions must also be there in that past to replace them, otherwise you're going against the rules again, as a version of you always has to exist. If there is only one you, an old version of you and a teenage version of you can't exist in the same plane at the same time unless you alter events. Actually, the moment Ansem step foot on Destiny Islands and stood before Young Xehanort something happened that didn't originally happen, and even though Young Xehanort didn't know it, an event was altered. He stood there once before Ansem was even created and time went as it should up until Ansem was created. However, in the cutscene we see, A being that shouldn't shouldn't exist appears in that same moment again and even goes as far as to relinquish new powers that he didn't previously have the first time he experienced that moment in the timeline, and therefore influences the future of the original timeline, which shouldn't be possible according to the rules. The user unknowingly follows the path that has been etched in the heart since they can't remember anything from their time travels, and therefore said person subsequently deviates from the original timeline unknowingly. If you have the explanation...please share lol I probably missed/overlooked/forgot something.


I'd argue that maybe Nomura means that no event changing pertains to major events, like birth,life,death,etc. But bringing versions of yourself from down the timeline into the present still seems to contradict the time traveling rules that are in place.

I just had a thought what if Ansem SoD didn't just go to YX's time period but another future version of Xehanort had the ability to travel through time and tried to put other plans into motion? Also based on the new secret movie In HD 2.5 it seems YX has some other plans.

You seem confused ... I'll try to explain how I understand it.

Everythin XH and YX did in the past already happened for everyone else in the present; after all if YX didn't get the power to time travel, he wouldn't have experienced his future. This etched memories he has yet to aquire in his heart, making him twisted and obsessed as an old man, and leading up to everything else ...
So, XH returning in the past is already part of history as it's this action that makes the timeline what it is. I'd wager the same holds true for whatever YX did in the past.

YX's occurences in the past are already set in stone, but the present (and future) is still changing. Having different versions of Xehanort in the present is thus not that weird.

I am confused, because I still don't see how that explanation results in their not being any altered timeline, even if everyone else knows only one history.


_______________________________Original Timeline____________________________________


Master Xehanort Destiny Island---------------------------> Desire for Time Travel-----> Ansem is Created.


This is the original timeline. This Xehanort cannot time travel at all, and released his heart to gain the ability to do so. So this is how things played out originally.



________________________________Altered Timeline___________________________________


Master Xehanort Destiny Island---> Ansem Interference--> Time Travel Abilities gained------> and so on.


Already we have the first problem. In the original timeline, the one that's supposed to be impossible to alter, is altered because Ansem exists and interferes. In the original timeline Ansem CANNOT exist on Destiny Island because he didn't turn himself into a heartless yet. Therefore going back in time and relinquishing powers to a younger version of yourself alters the timeline, because now he has powers he shouldn't have because the being that gave them to him can't even exist yet at that point in time. Like I said, it'd be one thing to be a ghost like entity and silently observe (even though you are there, you are not changing events); but giving someone powers is actively interfering and changing what originally was (A Xehnanort with no power), which is going against the rules Nomura set in place (seemingly). That is only the beginning. Because a being that can't exist yet exists and gives him new powers (whether he knows or not) changes many things in the future from then on, in order to have 13 versions of yourself in the present. You also said the past is set in stone. As per rules, that's how it's supposed to be. However, to have 13 versions of yourself in the present, you still have to have versions of you at every single point in the timeline according to the rules. So, if he brought them into the present, there have to be even MORE versions in the past to fill in the losses. So 12/13 other Xehanorts in the past to fill the place of the 12 he brought to the present. Otherwise, the versions he brought to the present no longer exist in the past, and this breaks the rules.

First, there's only one timeline, the one with "interference". Without Ansem's going back in time, he wouldn't have been created in the first place. It's a stable loop of sorts ...
What I'm trying to say is: there's no timeline where YX doesn't get the power to time travel, how this is possible, I don't know as his future was still his to choose at that time. But you could also say Ansem's interference robbed him of that future, ensuring Ansem will be created and go back in time (thus the loop I mensionned) ...

For the second part, all incarnations he takes in the past will return at the exact time they left, with no memories of what they've done, ensuring the continuity of time. Also, they don't need versions of themselves to go back to, as they're kicked back automatically in their own time when they "run out of time".

True, but I still respect the series because it never goes too far with the cutesy/comic-relief elements, and always retains its focus as a high-stakes fantasy drama.

Several series have fallen into the trap of not being able to decide on their identity, and characters and plots of one game often clash with another as a result. The most infamous example by far is the Sonic series, and Persona is bordering on this with the amount of spinoffs released recently with higher-than-average amounts of fanservice.

While it's not my favorite game, I do have a lot of respect for KH2 because it resolved the issue of "what kind of series is KH; despite being a crossover?" fairly early.

Okay, you say without Ansem going back in time, he wouldn't have been created in the first place. From what I understand, that cannot logically be. In order to travel to the the past, the past has to exist first.The event on Destiny Island took place some time before Xehanort turned himself into a heartless. A being can't come from the future if there is no past. Xehanort has to create him first. There is no version of yourself that can come from the future, if there is no past first. On Destiny Island, Ansem cannot exist. Fact 1, Ansem is a heartless. Fact 2, Xehanort on Destiny Island is not a heartless. Fact 3, Ansem cannot exist unless at some point Xehanort in an eventual present is turned into a heartless. Fact 4, Ansem can only time travel back to the past, if there is a past to go back too. Ansem was not there since the beginning of time, so there was a time Ansem was created. Ansem was not created before Xehanort, so Ansem had to be created sometime after Xehanort was born. We can confirm that Ansem was born after Xehanort became a heartless, and we can also confirm that that event on Destiny Island happened before Xehanort willingly turned himself into a heartless resulting in Ansem. There is supposed to be one timeline in KH, but with this theory based on his rules, I don't see how it's possible. The first Xehanort has no heartless, because at one point in time, that cutscene on Destiny Island was the present, not the past. In the moment that was the present and not a moment in the past, there was no Heartless, there was no nobody, there were no time traveling powers. However, when that moment became the past and the Ansem/Riku ordeal became the present, the Destiny Island Event is now the distant past and can now be traveled back too. And during this trip, Ansem altered the timeline with his influence by giving him powers and placing instructions or, "etching things into his heart" This is different from when the Destiny Island event was the present and not a moment in the past, and therefore, an event was altered and changed, and like Young Xehanort said, was the beginning of all that eventually transpired. So, I'm still seeing a flaw with the rules based on what has happened.


At the end of DDD, the existing vessels return to their rightful spots in the timeline with no memories as I mentioned. However, in order to have 13 versions of you fight 7 vessels of light, for that time in the present, they are missing in the past. That means while they fight with the 7 wielders in III, the incarnations that were taken to be the XIII in the present, don't exist in their respective place in the past anymore, unless there are clones or an additional 12/13 vessels are in their respective spots in the past.

It is a paradox. If they return to the exact moment they was taken from then from histories perspective they were never gone. Plus if they can't remember the trip then they can't alter anything which renders time alteration impossible.
Xehanort uses past to affect present but present can't affect past. The whole thing seems to go by what I saw one member call a Novikov principle.

Edit. This is where I saw it: http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-drop-distance/201722-new-perspective-kingdom-hearts-has-really-been-about-past-events.html

The video was very well put together! For being the touchy time-travel subject, it handled itself pretty ok. Time travel in this series is something I think one just simply has to GET. I don't think I do as of yet, though I think I'm getting there.

I'm confused about something. Why did Xemnas and Xigbar look forward to the destruction of their own group? I mean, Demyx, Larxene and Marluxia were probably unfit to be vessels, so that's why he had Sora destroy them.

My point I am trying to get at is, why did Xemnas have the Organization destroyed and where did those extra Xehanorts come from? I guess, it would have messed up the plot if he had more than thirteen vessels since having more than thirteen might ruin his plan.

Maybe I'm putting too much real world logic into this. After all, all this is based on what I saw in the video. Prior, I just thought Xehanort could time travel lol I thought it was just his unique ability as a wielder. As for the rules and the actual explanation, I'm taking their word for it (I trust you guys lol) From here on, I'll use myself as an example. My name is Joshua, and I'm 21.



Now, current day Joshua just learned how to time travel (January 30th, 2015 -10:55 PM). I decide I want to go back in time and show 8 year old Joshua the future, which is my present. If I take 8 year old Joshua away from his time, I cannot exist in the future, because if I take him to the future, there was no me in the past to grow into the 21 year old me that can time travel and show young Joshua around. I believe this is why Nomura said there always has to be a version of you at the point in time you are in as you time travel, to avoid this classic paradox. Therefore, if Master Xehanort took 13 versions of himself from different times, they no longer exist in the past, meaning they can't exist in the present (But I can let the reversal slide and accept that they can exist in the present). This also goes against there always being a version of him in the time he took them from. In order to have XIII in the present, he needs to still have XIII versions of them in the past from where they came to be within the rules. When all is said and done, they return to their rightful places, not remembering anything that happened during their time traveling ventures. However, with their temporary stay in the present, those versions are no longer in the past. If time is etched and they exist in both times at the same time, then one set are clones, and I haven't heard anything about that. The exact same version of you can't exist in two places and two times at the same time, let alone 13 versions in 2 places and 2 times. That would make 26 Xehanorts, and thats obviously wrong. Either way, even if it's temporary, to have a young and old version of you exist next to each other in the same plane at the same time, you have to alter events of the past, which goes against the theory. I believe in Nomura's rules, but with the theory provided, I think there's some conflict. The explanation is from the fans, so I think there is a piece missing, as opposed to their being a flaw in the rules. Or, I'm totally wrong and no one has told me how yet lol (please do)


However I'm positive about the Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands thing. When the Destiny Island Event was the present and not the past, Ansem didn't exist and that is a proven fact, and therefore he could not plant anything into YX's heart, or give him the ability to time travel. The present at that time had not got far enough into the future for Ansem to even exist yet. And since at some point he is created, and at another he goes back to the Destiny Island event which is now the past AND changes Young Xehanort in several ways, even though Young Xehanort is totally oblivious of what has transpired, Ansem has still broken a rule and altered an event which resulted in everything that followed.


Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing! I like the conversations it's started, and questions it's created. It got me excited for KH3 all over again.

They didn't try to get the organization destroy at all. Given the fact that Xigbar actually decide to fight SDG rather than just lay there. It was just when one of MX multiple backup plans. If the Organization succeed great! If Sora was able to defeat have a backup plan to still reach your goal.

I would say putting to much "mainstream" thought into it. That thread was the first time I had seen a "Novikov" principle. But after googling it and reading I found there was several theories. According to some things I searched most series follow the string theory idea or parallel.
But of course Nomura picks the one nobody has heard of. lol

Now, current day Joshua just learned how to time travel (January 30th, 2015 -10:55 PM). I decide I want to go back in time and show 8 year old Joshua the future, which is my present. If I take 8 year old Joshua away from his time, I cannot exist in the future, because if I take him to the future, there was no me in the past to grow into the 21 year old me that can time travel and show young Joshua around. I believe this is why Nomura said there always has to be a version of you at the point in time you are in as you time travel, to avoid this classic paradox. Therefore, if Master Xehanort took 13 versions of himself from different times, they no longer exist in the past, meaning they can't exist in the present. This also goes against there always being a version of him in the time he took them from. In order to have XIII in the present, he needs to still have XIII versions of them in the past from where they came to be within the rules. When all is said and done, they return to their rightful places, not remembering anything that happened during their time traveling ventures. However, with their temporary stay in the present, those versions are no longer in the past. If time is etched and they exist in both times at the same time, then one set are clones, and I haven't heard anything about that. The exact same version of you can't exist in two places. Either way, even if it's temporary, to have a young and old version of you exist next to each other in the same plane at the same time, you have to alter events of the past, which goes against the theory. I believe in Nomura's rules, but with the theory provided, I think there's some conflict. The explanation is from the fans, so I think there is a piece missing, as opposed to their being a flaw in the rules. Or, I'm totally wrong and no one has told me how yet lol (please do)

Your overthinking it. See your taking young Josh into the present but your not killing him. Young Josh eventually returns to his past and grows into you older Josh. Your not altering history because the young Josh is taken back to when he first left or just a few moments after.

What your describing would entail young Josh dying or ceasing to exist period. If you take young Josh to the future and he dies then yeah your diddlyed but that isn't what happens. You take young Josh off to the present>he comes back to the past>grows into you.

Young Josh isn't ceasing to exist because he's still living and he eventually returns to his proper place. The only way your example would work is if you killed young Josh.

However I'm positive about the Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands thing. When the Destiny Island Event was the present and not the past, Ansem didn't exist and that is a proven fact, and therefore he could not plant anything into YX's heart, or give him the ability to time travel. The present at that time had not got far enough into the future for Ansem to even exist yet. And since at some point he is created, and at another he goes back to the Destiny Island event which is now the past AND changes Young Xehanort in several ways, even though Young Xehanort is totally oblivious of what has transpired, Ansem has still broken a rule and altered an event which resulted in everything that followed. Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing! I like the conversations it's started, and questions it's created. It got me excited for KH3 all over again.

Nothing is proven. Ansem had to exist or he wouldn't be there at all. It is just that simple. Ansem is young Xehanort's future so he does exist.
I don't really get that part. Why would young Xehanort need to be seeded? Isn't just just the main Xehanort but in puberty?

The young version of me doesn't have to die in the future for it not to be possible. If I take the young version of me in the past to the future (which is my present) there is no longer a Joshua in the past. If there is no longer a Joshua in the past even for a second, in that second the timeline stops right there and ceases to go forward, because without a Josh in the past, anything going forward never happened because I dont exist. There is no Josh to move forward along the timeline. If Josh ceases to exist in the past, time travel can't work. In order for the basic concept of time travel to even work, The young version of me has to have lived up to the same point in the future. However, if he never lived on and disappeared, there is no future for me to go to, and there is no 21 year old Josh that learns how to time travel. 8 year old Josh going to the future and Killing 8 year old Josh in the future are one and the same. In both scenarios, there exists no Joshua in the past. The only difference is in one scenario, I never existed.


As for Xehanort, I'm not saying Ansem doesn't exist, no not at all lol I'm saying he couldn't possibly have existed at the time the Destiny Island event was the present, because Young Xehanort doesn't turn himself into a heartess until sometime later. Xehanort on Destiny Island could not time travel. If he could, why turn into a heartless? Remember why Ansem was created in the first place. Young Xehanort had the desire to travel through time, so he created Ansem. As we saw, Ansem was not created on Destiny Island in that moment, but later in the future. When Xehanorts' experiment was a success, then and only then was he able to travel back in time for the first time through the new being that was Ansem (and you cant travel back to an event that hasnt happened which means the Destiny Island even already happened), and there we see where Ansem intervened and set Young Xehanort on a course. So don't think I'm saying Ansem never existed, no of course not. I'm saying, there can't possibly be a way the timeline wasn't altered, if Ansem went back in time and changed Xehanort. The event had to happen first for him to be able to travel back to it. That Xehanort didn't meet an Ansem because he didn't exist yet, because he didnt turn himself into a hearltess until some time later. After Ansem is created and exists, THEN he went back and "altered" Young Xehanort. So you have, Xehanort who can't time travel but eventually has the desire and goes through with it. And then you have Xehanort who can time travel(but doesnt know yet) who also gains the desire and then goes through with it. If Ansem wasnt there since the begining of time, he had to be created. If he wasnt created yet, there was no way for him to contact him unless he was created in the future, and then traveled back to the past.

If he would have just watched, he would not have altered the past. However, he changed Young Xehanort, and subsequently did. I'm not sure how to simplify this point further lol Im sure 3 will clear this up. If we have to go through all of this, Im sure your average/casual fan hasnt the feintest idea of what any of this even means.

That isn't correct and there is more than one concept of time travel. It's just that his game isn't following one you normally see. Your limiting yourself to only the concept your familiar with.
The world is just more than one person and it isn't gonna stop moving forward just because young Josh is gone. Your missing the point that young Josh goes back. History says young Josh grows into big Josh not that he doesn't disappear for a little while and come back.
If history said you didn't disappear at a certain point but you did then time would be altered. But if time simply says you grow into you then nothing changes because nothing says you didn't disappear for a while.

It wasn't young Xehanort's desire to go back in time but older Xehanorts. Young Xehanort remembers nothing therefore he can't "want" anything. Your interrupting the events all backwards.
Taking the kind of man older Xehanort is into account what makes you think he wouldn't come up with this on his own anyway?
Ansem existed in KH1 and traveled back into his past. I don't get what confuses you about this. It's all one big set of events. Young Xehanort>ages>Old Xehanort>Terranort>Amnesiac trope>Ansem>goes backwards a few decades.
They all exist because it is Xehanort's timeline. Young Xehanort exists in his past, Ansem exists less ways in that same past and 13 Xehanort's exist in the present.

Your not simplifying any points. Your basically making a simple point more complicated than it is. All that really matters is that Xehanort said he can't alter anything. It was said in-game, it's a solid fact. There isn't any real way to argue this point.

All this is giving me a headache as well. If it's just going to be this circle of convolution I'm going to have to just agree to disagree so I can go back to my casual view of "oh it's a bishie Xehanort". This reminds me one reason I hate DDD. lol (besides the gameplay, hated that more)

Nothing confuses me about Ansem traveling back to the past. I'm saying since he did AND gave that version of him something he didnt have previosuly, he altered the past. Ansem didnt exist before Xehanort. This is what I'm trying to say and it's not debatable. We clearly saw a young adult Xehanort create Ansem. Therefore, if we literally saw a Xehanort that was older than the one on Destiny Islands create Ansem, he obviously didn't exist before he was created by Xehanort. Everything we know about KH happened because Ansem went back in time and influenced young Xehanort. He just went back in time before he was actually created. Its like If I created my own Ansem right this moment January 31, 2015, and that Ansem traveled back in time to 2012 to a younger me and placed the order "Look for ways to time travel" in my heart without me knowing. I'm saying, Ansem clearly didn't exist in 2012 since he was created on January 31, 2015. On January 31, 2015, I have no desire to Time Travel. However, On February 2nd, Ansem goes back in time and implants the message in my heart. Now, coming back to the present, January 31. 2015 I have the desire to time travel because of what my Ansem did in the paaaaaaaast before he was created lol That's all I've been trying to say. There IS one timeline, but it has been altered, as Young Xehanorts will is not his own, even though he doesnt know it. I understand you 100%, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to say at all, so I give lol I


Mine was a really technical thing. In order for there to be one timeline that was never altered by anyone, based on the information we have Ansem had to have always existed, and that's quite obviously not true. If Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands was 17, and he didn't serve under Ansem the Wise and create the fake Ansem until he was say, 19, how could 17 year old Xehanort have known to time travel if he didn't create Ansem until 2 years later?When he was 17, there was no such thing as an Ansem, nor was there a thought or mention of him. When he was 17, there was no 19 year old Xehanort because it hadn't happened yet. That would be 2 years into the future. The point is, we know Ansem traveled back in time for a fact and is not debatable, and if Ansem didnt exist until Xehanort was 19 (not official ages of course) which well say takes 2 years after Destiny Island when hes 19, 17 year old Xehanort has no way of knowing any of this unless the being from 2 years later that is Ansem comes and tells him, which in turn changes the 17 year old Xehanort, who didnt create Ansem yet. But I really do give :P


Hahaha, you know what, I really, genuinely enjoyed the video and effort, but until something more concrete surfaces, I'm going back to my original theory. Xehanort can do whatever he does because Kingdom Hearts, and I'm just going to enjoy the story and gamplay lol Thanks for trying to help me though, I really appreciate it.

You're making this way more complicated than it really is. Of course Ansem doesn't exist in YX's time, that's the whole point of time travel.

Xehanort always had the desire to time travel (and the power to move forward in time, but this is debatable) past that encounter with Ansem; Ansem wouldn't exist otherwise. Ansem exists in YX's future, even if it hasn't happened yet. And he goes back in time to make sure that future happens ...

In the one and only timeline, Ansem messed with the past, leading to his creation, leading to him going back, leading to his creation ... A stable loop, in a single timeline.

Also, any time displaced body will for sure return to his time in the same condition, at the exact time of departure, with no memories. This can happen when they run out of time, or are destroyed. So, as YX cannot escape his present, his future will always exist.

Time travel stuff is always complicated, but I believe KH's is one of the simplest.

Honestly this. At the start I was kind of confused about it myself but after playing the cutscene several times I was able to get a pretty good idea of what was going on. As long as you don't question every little intricate thing then you'll at least have a basis. Not saying that they should have used time travel in the first place, but it's a pretty simple time travel that doesn't affect the story at large, in other words, it's pretty self-contained which is a good thing.

So since this video has made me think about time travel (weird) it has also made me think on how the RoS is a place where "real time does not flow." Time does not flow in the Realm of Sleep but clearly time flowed while Sora and Riku were there, and then my cold started me picturing the RoS as a library of sorts (I might be a little disjointed here.) A book can't read itself. The information is there but someone has to turn the pages. A book by itself spends no time, but you spend time reading a book.
Now while the worlds seemed to repeat themselves while in sleep, it could be they really were is stasis. Unmoving until an outside source (Sora and Riku) turned their pages. So the RoS by itself has no flow of time, and only by an outside source does time there move.
I have no idea if I made sense.

That's literally all I was getting at (except Ansem would have been created either way since a being that doesn't exist yet can't tell Xehanort to make him exist). I'm saying he went back in his timeline and changed it. The rule is, you can't mess with the timeline events since that's against the rules, so I was just saying there was one thing that was overlooked. The reason more than one timeline came up is it's the only possible way that a timeline wasn't altered as some claimed, but as you understand it was; and according to Nomura's rule set, that can't be, and of course he only wants/has (us too) one timeline. I won't touch the other time traveling rules and 13 vessels again since no one seems to be getting what I'm trying to say about the rules of time travel at all. But as I said, it certainly doesn't matter to me. I was more than fine with, Xehanort can do whatever because he can, and KH3 is going to be amazing because of it lol However, I also thank you for your response.

People get what your saying you just don't get what their saying back to you. Your using only one ideal of time travel when a decent google search will show you there is more than one. You won't apply any other types but the one your advocating to this topic and it's just causing it to go in circles.
Your also missing the point that nothing about young Xehanort changed. History said he grows up into Ansem which you just admitted would come to exist either way. History didn't change because young Xehanort can't remember anything to alter and Ansem won't change it because for one he can't and if he could he likely wouldn't or he'd be faced with the possibility of erasure.

There's no way to make this more simple for you. If you aren't willing to look at other ideas of time travel then your replies to peoples explanations are pointless.
I quit worrying about it myself a long time ago. It's a fun topic to delve into or read in theories but on a personal level I'm just "Oh look a Bishie-nort".

Edit. The only way to make this as simple as possible for you is that Xehanort is a troll and that he's causing a paradox on the same timeline. He's creating a loop over his own life but not altering anything that lead up to him becoming the old creepy geezer he is.

Edit Two. Another alternative for you would to just ignore it. Young Xehanort says he can't alter things meant to happen. This is something Nomura had Xehanort point out and establish a couple times in KH3D. Even if you find flaws in it, or argue against it, as far as Nomura and canon goes it is a single timeline of events that Xehanort says he can't alter.
It is a fact that and is pointless to argue over because that is the course Nomura has set for this story.

Edit Three. Also want to point out I mean no offense. Saying this just in case I accidentally come off aggressive or something. I know things do not translate well over a computer screen. ^_^"

The actual version of time travel doesn't matter, because the problem persists in any version of time travel. Trust me, I fully understand your version of time travel and your explanation 100%. However, I still get that one of my points isn't fully understood, based on responses, but that's likely my fault. But trust in me, I understand the responses presented fully and completely. I'm probably just really bad at explaining things, and like you said, making things more complicated which really takes the fun out of it; which is something I don't want. I wasn't trying to argue with the man himself, I just thought maybe on a veeery technical scale, something was overlooked.

And don't worry kind sir, I know you weren't trying to be aggressive. I put in a couple of LOL's myself to let people know that I'm not trying to start an argument or make anyone angry; or appear aggressive/hostile/annoying, which is honestly a vibe I get from a lot of members sadly (I literally had to leave the site once) lol But I really do give in. Regardless of Nomura's rules or theories, He says Ansem went back in time, and that somehow the timeline was never altered (since it's all going to happen anyway), and that the memories returning gimmick is a good enough explanation for 13 versions in the present. That's more than good enough for me. I was willing to go along with him just being able too because he's special, or because keyblade wielders can use magic. I mean, there are time altering magics other wielders use , and I never questioned them. I certainly didn't mean for my comment to transform into what it did. Again, I really appreciate all the responses and effort, sincerely :D.

Great video, I have a little better understanding about it. However, I am still confused on one part. Since you cannot travel into the future, exactly how are all the Xehanorts suppose to come together in one place, particularly Young Xehanort.

To put it simply, you can't travel to what hasn't happened yet. When they were all gathering, that was obviously happening presently, so it works. They are waiting it out to once again gather together.

The video was great! All involved did a good job.

Reading everyone's comments is what's confusing me the most haha. But I like reading everything and it's interesting so I don't mind. Everyone's pretty much asked the questions I have.

Edit: I just wanted to say that I pretty much understand the concept of time travel in KH now that I've read everyone's comments. This was a good discussion that everyone took part in!

Certainly makes it a bit clearer.

Though you guys forgot that Scar also retained his consciousness, memories and body after becoming a Heartless.

A very well done episode! I look forward to see more KH Mysteries.

About the memories etching deep down to Young Xehanorts heart. I would just love to see a scene in KH3, where Young Xehanort and Eraqus are talking, and the conversation would go something like this:
YX: "I`m not sure what I want from life."
YE:" Just listen to your heart."
YX:" Yeah, maybe I should do that."

And we all now what will happen when YX listn to his heart. Some irony don`t you think?

Excellent episode. You guys did a pretty good job on explaining most of the headaches that came from Time Travel.

That was very good. It did help clear some things for me about time traveling, spoken with more detail than the official characters in 3D. But, KH is a game of mystery, that said, it would be too easy to solve if they were to spell every little thing out for the players throughout the games.One part in this video which caught me off guard was about Sora having strained his heart with the Darkness within him over his adventures.
It could be I have seen this but I disregarded the possible fact due to Sora being one of my most admired characters. Or, I may have been getting a misconception on the whole thing, and the fact Sora has been unknowingly damaging his own heart had never occurred to me until 3D. It became obvious what was happening to him while he went deeper and deeper into the chasm of dreams.
So the idea of him having this problem with the Darkness throughout his previous journeys and experiences of the heart was a new perspective for me. Is this something that has actually been confirmed by the game's director???
Not that it doesn't sound entirely possible...as Sora does show various signs about having trouble with his Darkness throughout KH II. He even says in the end while in the Dark Margin with his best friend Riku, "You know, maybe the Darkness has gotten to me, too." -Sora


Anyway, I digress... I am very much looking forward to the next episode that will focus on the hearts connected to Sora. That's always a subject that could use some more light shed upon.


The video was a splendid composition, I liked the selection of scenes.

I'm glad to have that cleared up. From the outside, time travel looks like a complete mess in the KH series, but it actually makes some sense, especially with this video to help out.
I can't wait for next episode.

Awesome job guys, looking forward to the other vids.

You mean one of my theories actually sounds good? Awesome! :D
I know right? It seems like the replica program should've had a greater purpose to the plot. I mean Xion's existence is still confusing in a way.. but hey at least we get Riku Replica back in DDD. No doubt he'll be in KH3. That's it, a showdown between Sora and Riku vs Vanitas and the Replica

Thx for your work， and there are also lots people love kingdom hearts in China，to love it is not easy ,because lots of reasons(just like ps4 come out in China...) but nothing can defeat our love for kingdom hearts !:biggrin: